It's an old testament thing, and both Mormons and Baptists (which I consider Christian, the factionization and hatred between Christian groups is another matter) believe that if a human being is not baptized they will not go to Heaven, but remain in Purgatory.
Do you happen to know where in the OT? I'd be very interested in looking up the verses and reading it in context!
Mormons and Baptists may be following Churchianity, rather than Biblical Christianity-- as I mentioned earlier. It's sucky when the whole thing gets umbrella-statemented just because a few people don't read their Bible enough.
In the case of babies, they can never leave purgatory. Mormons actually have an interesting custom of getting baptized FOR other people -- I knew folk in high school who did it once a week.
Mormons are weird. But, that's another topic all together! ;D
Whereas I would say that believing in the Christian god, and an "ultimate plan", is a very complex self delusion that ultimately leads to self-loathing and depression -- is it not more tragic that a creator, against whom we are grains of sand, sees fit to torture without giving reasons why?
I'm curious-- how do you think it leads to self-loathing and depression? I'm just very intrigued, and want to follow your train of logic, since I know you have one. n__n
Well, Job had to deal with all sorts of bad stuff. And at the end, God actually comes to him, in the visage of a whirlwind. But, instead of offering an explanation as to why Job had to go through all the suffering, all that he had to-- He turns around and asks Job, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." And onward goes the liturgy of just a few chapters of the wonders that God has done, that we simply take for granted, as far as creation goes. And in the end, Job-- who never lost faith, who continued to trust in God-- says "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee... I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefor I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Heh, so even though Job suffered all the bad stuff, he repented. Why? 'Cuz he knew that before the glory of God, he was so small, so poor, so wretched. And yet, God-- who owes us *nothing*-- still cares for us, still loves us, and actively pursues us. He sent His Son-- an aspect of Himself-- to die, and make propitiation for all our sins-- just so we could be with Him! He's never left us, never forsaken us-- no matter how we turn away.
Heh, in retrospect, this probably won't make any more sense as an answer to you, than God's to Job made any sense to me, the first time I read it. n__n;;
I also don't in any way think that the answer you offer is what evolution gives you. Again, I disagree with anthropomorphizing evolution at all -- it would be like saying that physical law wants you to eat fish on Fridays, it's just absurd.
I would ask, then-- what is the answer that evolution gives you?
In my entirely non-Christian brain, when I hear about these horrible things happening all over the world, I don't sit back and say "God has a plan." I try to help where I can, and mourn where I cannot.
Whoah-- when did I say it's okay to just sit back and watch? By all means, the Bible says-- "Love your neighbor as yourself." That means help out, give the shirt off your back, sympathize, mourn, feel. The exact things that modern day society seems to be lacking-- even though Mr. Einstein-- and I will be careful, sorry-- kept exhorting us to do just that, without God.
Blaming the troubles on the world on a deity that (at least to me) is quite obviously not omnipotent seems awfully irresponsible and unfair to the deity.
Um, I'm sorry-- I got a bit confused. Where were you going with that? n__n;;;;;;; Not quite sure to which tangent that was responding to.
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timeasmymeasure
C
Date: 2003-09-30 06:53 am (UTC)Do you happen to know where in the OT? I'd be very interested in looking up the verses and reading it in context!
Mormons and Baptists may be following Churchianity, rather than Biblical Christianity-- as I mentioned earlier. It's sucky when the whole thing gets umbrella-statemented just because a few people don't read their Bible enough.
In the case of babies, they can never leave purgatory. Mormons actually have an interesting custom of getting baptized FOR other people -- I knew folk in high school who did it once a week.
Mormons are weird. But, that's another topic all together! ;D
Whereas I would say that believing in the Christian god, and an "ultimate plan", is a very complex self delusion that ultimately leads to self-loathing and depression -- is it not more tragic that a creator, against whom we are grains of sand, sees fit to torture without giving reasons why?
I'm curious-- how do you think it leads to self-loathing and depression? I'm just very intrigued, and want to follow your train of logic, since I know you have one. n__n
Well, Job had to deal with all sorts of bad stuff. And at the end, God actually comes to him, in the visage of a whirlwind. But, instead of offering an explanation as to why Job had to go through all the suffering, all that he had to-- He turns around and asks Job, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." And onward goes the liturgy of just a few chapters of the wonders that God has done, that we simply take for granted, as far as creation goes. And in the end, Job-- who never lost faith, who continued to trust in God-- says "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee... I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefor I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Heh, so even though Job suffered all the bad stuff, he repented. Why? 'Cuz he knew that before the glory of God, he was so small, so poor, so wretched. And yet, God-- who owes us *nothing*-- still cares for us, still loves us, and actively pursues us. He sent His Son-- an aspect of Himself-- to die, and make propitiation for all our sins-- just so we could be with Him! He's never left us, never forsaken us-- no matter how we turn away.
Heh, in retrospect, this probably won't make any more sense as an answer to you, than God's to Job made any sense to me, the first time I read it. n__n;;
I also don't in any way think that the answer you offer is what evolution gives you. Again, I disagree with anthropomorphizing evolution at all -- it would be like saying that physical law wants you to eat fish on Fridays, it's just absurd.
I would ask, then-- what is the answer that evolution gives you?
In my entirely non-Christian brain, when I hear about these horrible things happening all over the world, I don't sit back and say "God has a plan." I try to help where I can, and mourn where I cannot.
Whoah-- when did I say it's okay to just sit back and watch? By all means, the Bible says-- "Love your neighbor as yourself." That means help out, give the shirt off your back, sympathize, mourn, feel. The exact things that modern day society seems to be lacking-- even though Mr. Einstein-- and I will be careful, sorry-- kept exhorting us to do just that, without God.
Blaming the troubles on the world on a deity that (at least to me) is quite obviously not omnipotent seems awfully irresponsible and unfair to the deity.
Um, I'm sorry-- I got a bit confused. Where were you going with that? n__n;;;;;;; Not quite sure to which tangent that was responding to.